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  • Atheists... READ

    I remembered reading this a couple weeks back and thought this kind of puts an end to Atheism...

    NEW YORK Dec 9, 2004 A British philosophy professor who has been a leading champion of atheism for more than a half-century has changed his mind. He now believes in God more or less based on scientific evidence, and says so on a video released Thursday.

    At age 81, after decades of insisting belief is a mistake, Antony Flew has concluded that some sort of intelligence or first cause must have created the universe. A super-intelligence is the only good explanation for the origin of life and the complexity of nature, Flew said in a telephone interview from England.

    Flew said he's best labeled a deist like Thomas Jefferson, whose God was not actively involved in people's lives.

    "I'm thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian and far and away from the God of Islam, because both are depicted as omnipotent Oriental despots, cosmic Saddam Husseins," he said. "It could be a person in the sense of a being that has intelligence and a purpose, I suppose."



    Flew first made his mark with the 1950 article "Theology and Falsification," based on a paper for the Socratic Club, a weekly Oxford religious forum led by writer and Christian thinker C.S. Lewis.

    Over the years, Flew proclaimed the lack of evidence for God while teaching at Oxford, Aberdeen, Keele, and Reading universities in Britain, in visits to numerous U.S. and Canadian campuses and in books, articles, lectures and debates.

    There was no one moment of change but a gradual conclusion over recent months for Flew, a spry man who still does not believe in an afterlife.

    Yet biologists' investigation of DNA "has shown, by the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce (life), that intelligence must have been involved," Flew says in the new video, "Has Science Discovered God?"

    The video draws from a New York discussion last May organized by author Roy Abraham Varghese's Institute for Metascientific Research in Garland, Texas. Participants were Flew; Varghese; Israeli physicist Gerald Schroeder, an Orthodox ***; and Roman Catholic philosopher John Haldane of Scotland's University of St. Andrews.

    The first hint of Flew's turn was a letter to the August-September issue of Britain's Philosophy Now magazine. "It has become inordinately difficult even to begin to think about constructing a naturalistic theory of the evolution of that first reproducing organism," he wrote.

    The letter commended arguments in Schroeder's "The Hidden Face of God" and "The Wonder of the World" by Varghese, an Eastern Rite Catholic layman.

    This week, Flew finished writing the first formal account of his new outlook for the introduction to a new edition of his "God and Philosophy," scheduled for release next year by Prometheus Press.

    Prometheus specializes in skeptical thought, but if his belief upsets people, well "that's too bad," Flew said. "My whole life has been guided by the principle of Plato's Socrates: Follow the evidence, wherever it leads."

    Last week, Richard Carrier, a writer and Columbia University graduate student, posted new material based on correspondence with Flew on the atheistic www.infidels.org Web page. Carrier assured atheists that Flew accepts only a "minimal God" and believes in no afterlife.

    Flew's "name and stature are big. Whenever you hear people talk about atheists, Flew always comes up," Carrier said. Still, when it comes to Flew's reversal, "apart from curiosity, I don't think it's like a big deal."

    Flew told The Associated Press his current ideas have some similarity with American "intelligent design" theorists, who see evidence for a guiding force in the construction of the universe. He accepts Darwinian evolution but doubts it can explain the ultimate origins of life.

    A Methodist minister's son, Flew became an atheist at 15.

    Early in his career, he argued that no conceivable events could constitute proof against God for believers, so skeptics were right to wonder whether the concept of God meant anything at all.

    Another landmark was his 1984 "The Presumption of Atheism," playing off the presumption of innocence in criminal law. Flew said the debate over God must begin by presuming atheism, putting the burden of proof on those arguing that God exists.
    *********

  • #2
    Ive read that b4....but just because a guy changes his mind, it doesnt mean anything.

    Usually older people become religious when they realize death is near. (81 yrs old when he changed his mind)

    just goes to show that none of us really know the truth. thats y im agnostic.
    The sky darkens, my life flashes
    The plane I was supposed to be on crashes
    and falls to ashes

    Comment


    • #3
      Flew said. "My whole life has been guided by the principle of Plato's Socrates: Follow the evidence, wherever it leads."


      Yet, Historians/Theologians/Philiosophers still debate whether Socrates was a creation of Plato or a real human, and further that his stories are nothing more than a play or "fairy-tale" that has a moral to them.
      "Fuck other people's thoughts. You don't need them. They're not yours for a reason. Believe what you want for a reason and tell everyone else to fuck off."-my brother.

      Comment


      • #4
        just goes to show that none of us really know the truth. thats y im agnostic

        That's all good and fine. But..."none of us know the truth" Quite frankly, I know the truth. After all, I just spelled and just said I know it by ways of communication. That isn't a smartass answer either, I'm just being real. I know truth because I know truth.
        "Fuck other people's thoughts. You don't need them. They're not yours for a reason. Believe what you want for a reason and tell everyone else to fuck off."-my brother.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by unown23
          just goes to show that none of us really know the truth.

          Ahh but some do, Havnt you heard of the astral plane?
          For those who have to ask, no answer would suffice

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by objectivist
            Usually older people become religious when they realize death is near. (81 yrs old when he changed his mind)
            hehe exactly.
            "I'mma dedicate this album to everyone who cried when they killed Optimus Prime" -Murs

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by `Kman
              hehe exactly.

              I dont know... I'm pursuaded to believe the 81 year old expert on atheism who lectured at Oxford over some people on a hip hop board...
              *********

              Comment


              • #8
                Wait, this was suppose to make me a theist?

                This panzy is just scared that he will go to Hell. When an ecplipse occured long long ago, it was evidence there was a God because no one could explain it. No one can explain DNA and where it came from, but in the future we will be able too.

                If anyone changes their mind about God because this senile man changed his, then they are no better than someone who believes in God because that's how they were raised... Ignorant.

                Comment


                • #9
                  ^ I believe that God is corrupted by religion. Atheists often ask this question, "If there is a God, why does he allow so much bad shit to go on in the world?" Bad shit, i.e... War, Murder, Hunger. That's the dumbest shit i've ever heard in my life. Because God created us, not to be his fucking puppets, but to give us the freedom, and joy of existance. An existance which comes along with freedom to do as we please. God does not control us. If he did, that would defeat the purpose of our existance, and him creating us.

                  Being a pro-theist means you do not deny God. They often ask this question, "If there's no God, then who created us?" Which is senseless as shit because not only are you contradicting yourself in knowing that you don't have a fucking clue who created God, but you think that he "just exists". If God can just exist, it's possible for you to just exist too.

                  I am my own person. I believe in God, not because it was what I was raised to believe, or because I think someone has to have created us. It's because having something(one) ABOVE everything else, i.e... regionally... a King, leader, or, Universally, a God... IS the natural state of existance.

                  One of the most convincing statements I've ever heard regarding Atheism is that God is purely, a mythic creation. People seek reason. Did God create us, or is it the other way around? Maybe we are the only creatures on this Earth who believe in God. Think of any animals. In your belief God created everything, including them. If you were to talk to your dog, could you imagine asking him, do you believe in God, and him replying positively?
                  ...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Read this on Flew's revelations: http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=369.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by unown23
                      just goes to show that none of us really know the truth. thats y im agnostic

                      That's all good and fine. But..."none of us know the truth" Quite frankly, I know the truth. After all, I just spelled and just said I know it by ways of communication. That isn't a smartass answer either, I'm just being real. I know truth because I know truth.

                      Oh, I wasnt saying "none of us no the truth" in a general philosohpical sense. I am an objectivist follower. I meant that none of us can figure out the truth about weather or not God exists because science can say he doesnt but if God exists - it has nothing to do with science, He would be more paranormal.
                      The sky darkens, my life flashes
                      The plane I was supposed to be on crashes
                      and falls to ashes

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The John Kerry of cosmic entities has spoken, it only took 100 years to figure it out.
                        One convienient location...... somewhere in Africa.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I'm personally not really a theist, but I also believe strongly that there's nothing wrong whatsoever with believing in higher principles than just those in front of us. I believe spirituality has its place in the world. And I think extremely strong atheism makes use of faith (you can't prove a universal negative) just like religious people do. I personally will say that I don't know what's out there, and that I don't know and possibly can't ever know what strange things lurk in the cosmos and what higher principles there are. I think at some level, some sort of faith IS needed in everyone's life. The question is where does it come from? And when I mean faith, I'm counting faith in yourself. A belief in what you're going to do - a self-transcendence in a way. Anyway I'm rambling........

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Stickz2004
                            ^ I believe that God is corrupted by religion. Atheists often ask this question, "If there is a God, why does he allow so much bad shit to go on in the world?" Bad shit, i.e... War, Murder, Hunger. That's the dumbest shit i've ever heard in my life. Because God created us, not to be his fucking puppets, but to give us the freedom, and joy of existance. An existance which comes along with freedom to do as we please. God does not control us. If he did, that would defeat the purpose of our existance, and him creating us.
                            So we have power independant of God?

                            That would mean God is not omnipotent..................................That fact destroys the very definition of God in religious text's.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              the astral plane is what leaded me to be possessed, Christ is the sacviour, the astral plane is real. but its a big no

                              Comment

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