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  • John McCain Was No Hero

    A True Hero of the Vietnam War, Humanity and Country

    by Rev. Emmanuel Charles McCarthy

    Killing in an unjust and immoral war is neither laudable nor heroic. Yet, Senator John McCain is constantly trumpeted by the corporate media as a war hero with special emphasis on his being a prisoner of war. He had the gall when he returned to Vietnam – decades after trying to destroy it and its people, while piloting a multimillion dollar jet armed with some of the most sophisticated and hellish weapons ever produced (high-tech anti-personal bombs, napalm, etc.) – to self-righteously complain that when the Vietnamese stopped him from killing them and their children they did not treat him properly. However, it should be noted they did not kill him, as "an eye for an eye" morality could have easily justified. John McCain in fact has gone on to live a rich and full life, which is more than can be said for those Vietnamese, civilian and military, whom he murdered (unjustly killed) or cooperated with the murder of from his plane. Whether he or anyone else, who traveled 7,000 miles from the U.S. to kill Vietnamese, personally considered at the time that doing the bidding of Johnson, Nixon, McNamara and Kissinger was murder is a very important point, when reconciliation before God is considered – if there is a God and if life is not merely an accumulation of spasms of pleasure and pain before total and permanent annihilation. But, in 2007 the whole world knows that the U.S. attack on and destruction of Vietnam and its people was, to use the words of Thomas Merton, "an overwhelming atrocity." To continue today to refer to a person by the term "hero" who participated in this unjust human slaughter, for purposes of trying to morally prop up this prior act of wicked savagery, is more than ludicrous – it is participating in and perpetuating the evil out of which the Vietnam depravity arose.

    "Hero" in reference to a person who unjustifiably kills people, serves also as part of the indoctrination process for normalizing the evasion of truth, the denial of reality and the manufacturing of facts that today allows those who planned and executed the mass murder (unjust destruction) of hundreds of thousands of human beings in Iraq to be called "hero." This propagandizing of the "hero" tag vis-ΰ-vis those involved in an unjust and/or illegal war is also part of the spin (deception) required to justify in the eyes of ordinary people sending plane-load after plane-load of future "heroes" over to Vietnam yesterday, Iraq today and Iran tomorrow in order to continue the very profitable murder operation of a perpetual war economy under some auspices or another, e.g., the Communist Chinese will overrun Vietnam within six months after the U.S. leaves; the radically hated U.S. is needed as a "peacekeeper" force in Iraq! Whatever the case that may be made for the "heroic" killing of other human beings in a just war – and I personally think that such a case cannot be made – it falls apart completely once the war is unjust and thereby the destruction of people becomes unjustified killing, murder. John McCain, John Kerry, John Murtha, Bob Kerry, etc., with their medals for homicide are not the heroes of the Vietnam War, the war in "the land of the burning children" as Daniel Berrigan accurately named it at the time.

    NAPALM. The most effective "anti-personnel" weapon, it is euphemistically described as "unfamiliar cooking fluid" by those apologists for American military methods. They automatically attribute all napalm cases to domestic accidents caused by the people using gasoline instead of kerosene in their cooking stoves. Kerosene is far too expensive for the peasants, who normally use charcoal for cooking. The only "cooking fluid" they know is very "unfamiliar" – it is delivered through their roofs by U.S. planes.

    Some of its finer selling points were explained to me by a pilot in 1966: "We sure are pleased with those backroom boys at Dow. The original product wasn’t so hot – if the gooks were quick they could scrape it off. So the boys started adding polystyrene – now it sticks like shit to a blanket. But then if the gooks jumped under water it stopped burning, so they started adding Willie Peter (WP – white phosphorous) so’s to make it burn better. It’ll even burn under water now. And just one drop is enough, it’ll keep on burning right down to the bone so they die anyway from phosphorous poisoning."

    ~ Vietnam, Inc., Philip Jones Griffiths, 2001, pp. 210–211

    So, what does an authentic American hero of the Vietnam War look like? He does not look like the U.S. jet pilot in Vietnam in 1966 whose photo and comments are included above. Rather, he looks like Dale Noyd.

    Dale Noyd was a decorated Air Force fighter pilot, who was given a medal for landing a badly damaged, nuclear-armed F-100 Fighter at an English airfield. He also taught at the Air Force Academy. In 1966, after 11 years in the Air Force, he asked that he either be allowed to resign his commission or be classified as a conscientious objector because of his feelings about the Vietnam War. His request was denied, and Dale Noyd took his case to federal court in Denver in March 1967.

    The American Civil Liberties Union, which represented him, said it was the first lawsuit claiming conscientious objector status because of an opposition to a specific war. In December 1967, using a legal dodge ("We are not responsible here"), that echoed the defense offered by the German judges who were tried at Nuremberg for war crimes after World War II, the U.S. Supreme Court refused to hear his case, saying that the military had jurisdiction.

    The Air Force then ordered Captain Noyd to train a pilot who was probably on the path toward Vietnam. Noyd refused and was court-martialed for disobeying an order.

    During his military trial, the Military Court also availed itself of a position in direct contradiction to principles on which people were convicted at Nuremberg, namely, "Hand over your conscience to us, your moral objections not withstanding – or else." Captain Noyd's belief in conscience that the Vietnam War was immoral and illegal was not addressed. The panel of 10 officers, who were all Vietnam veterans, did not allow discussion of his beliefs. The central legal-moral issue, of whether his objecting to a particular war rather than all wars was legal, was ruled out as a matter of consideration by the Court. The U.S. Supreme Court for a second time refused his appeal to hear his case! Therefore the ultimate choice Captain Dale Noyd was given was to either abandon his conscience and become morally a murderer in his own eyes, i.e., take part in what he saw as the unjustified killing of human beings, or become a prisoner of war. Dale Noyd chose to be true to the truth of his conscience. He was sentenced to a year in prison, given a dishonorable discharge, and stripped of his pension and benefits.

    This is what a Vietnam hero, a hero of humanity and of country looks like. It is Dale Noyd, whose life is a profile in courage on behalf of life, humanity and country. It is Captain Dale Noyd whose bravery should be held up before those in the military today, including chaplains, who know in their consciences that this war on Iraq is unjust, perpetrated and sustained by a ceaseless flow of lethal lies – that it is nothing more or less than "big-time" murder incorporated. Most of all it is Dale Noyd, his integrity, his empathy for those being unjustly destroyed on all sides, his patriotism, his valor and his guts, that should be deliberately and ceaselessly placed before the eyes of each and every U.S. Representative and Senator. Held up in front of them until every bloody one of them, who knows in his or her conscience that this war is grotesquely immoral and/or illegal, acts – without calculation concerning his or her personal political fortunes – to effectively and immediately put an end to it.

    Dale Edwin Noyd joined the universal community of the dead on January 11, 2007.

    The story ends here – or does it?

    February 6, 2007

    Fr. Emmanuel Charles McCarthy is a priest of the Eastern Rite (Byzantine-Melkite) of the Catholic Church. Formerly a lawyer and a university educator, he is the founder and the original director of The Program for the Study and Practice of Nonviolent Conflict Resolution at the University of Notre Dame. He is also co-founder, along with Dorothy Day and others of Pax Christi-USA. He has conducted retreats and spoken at conferences throughout the world on the issue of the relationship of faith and violence and the nonviolence of the Jesus. He was the keynote speaker at the Lorraine Motel in Memphis, Tennessee for the 25th anniversary memorial of the assassination of Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. there. He is author of several books, including these: All Things Flee Thee because Thou Fleest Me: A Cry to the Churches and their Leaders to Return to the Nonviolent Jesus and His Nonviolent Way; Christian Just War Theory: The logic of Deceit; August 9: The Stations of the Cross of Nonviolent Love. He has also authored innumerable articles on the subject of violence, religion and the nonviolent love of friends and enemies taught by Jesus by word and deed. His audio/video series, BEHOLD THE LAMB, is almost universally considered to be the most spiritually profound presentation on the matter of Gospel Nonviolent Love available in this format. BEHOLD THE LAMB is now available on mp3CD through his website, either at the cost of $5.00 for a disc or it can be acquired directly by an mp3 downloaded from the website for no cost. Rev. Emmanuel Charles McCarthy was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize for his life's work on behalf of peace within people and among people. He may be reached and his work may be accessed at the Center for Christian Non-Violence.

  • #2
    I am not going to dispute the comments on McCain in this article since he was hardly the average draftee during the Vietnam War, he was 27 in 1963 and had chosen a career in the military so he can hardly be considered naive and inexperienced. However, most of the boys that fought in Vietnam were drafted, they were on average 19 years old, given a gun and sent to a foreign country to fight, no doubt after six weeks of basic brainwashing. They did not have the benefit of hindsight and at 19 probably not much in the way of foresight. Dale Noyd was clearly an exception. To label them all as murderers is to ignore the complexity of the Cold War, the fear that US citizens had drilled into them everyday and the sophisticated tecniques army's use in convicing naive boys that they are serving their country by killing the deemed enemy. Unlike Iraq, which is an all volunteer army, these boys were not given much of a choice, they were drafted.
    "Nationalism is an infantile sickness. It is the measles of the human race."

    -Albert Einstein

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Tricia View Post
      However, most of the boys that fought in Vietnam were drafted
      Hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese boys fought in the war, and they did so willingly. As did hundreds of thousands of female peasants. When your whole village is bombed by chemicals, or your whole village is raped and slaughtered (an every day thing), you will tend to fight back, no matter how old.

      As for the Americans, well, their government decreed that they owned their body and soul, and as such every single one of them had to be killed and tortured.


      Dale Noyd was clearly an exception.
      Thousands of them deserted, especially the non-whites who understood that this was not their war, and many joined the Vietnam National Liberation Army.

      To label them all as murderers is to ignore the complexity of the Cold War
      The "Cold War" never existed.

      This was America invading a Third World country to surround Maoist China and rape its natural resources (Vietnam had huge, some the largest in the world, deposits of minerals that were needed for the U.S. space programmes).

      the fear that US citizens had drilled into them everyday and the sophisticated tecniques army's use in convicing naive boys that they are serving their country by killing the deemed enemy.
      I hope you are not a hypocrite and will be apologetic for the German people during WWII.

      Unlike Iraq, which is an all volunteer army, these boys were not given much of a choice, they were drafted.
      You can:

      - Go to prison.
      - Desert.
      - Execute your officers.
      - Commit suicide.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by | K Y L E | View Post
        You can:
        - Go to prison.
        - Desert.
        - Execute your officers.
        - Commit suicide.
        None of which your pansey ass would EVER do. Your really good at pretending to speak from a perspetive that gives you an ounce of credibility (tell me faggot, what war did YOU desert from? When did you exercise any of those options that you so casually advocate to others?).

        I love how a kid living in a first world country with a fridge full of food tries to hand out advice on draft-dodging, like he has EVER been in a remotely similar sitution or has any idea what he is talking about.

        Anyone who advocates fucking suicide as a solution to a problem obviously has never encountered said problem themselves, and thus should SHUT THE FUCK UP. Notice how your threads get about 0-5 replies now | K Y L E | ? No one takes you seriously anymore.
        Originally posted by ethan20
        There's a correlation between cervixal cancer in women and un-circumsized penises. Not to mention it almost cuts your bacteria count on the penis in half.
        Originally posted by reservoirGod
        Ethan sure does know alot about dicks

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by kEgBeGgEr View Post
          None of which your pansey ass would EVER do.
          I believe an individual that tries to use the word 'pansy' in a serious political and military conversation would consider the option of going to prison a 'pansy' choice.

          Your really good at pretending to speak from a perspetive that gives you an ounce of credibility
          Is is rather elementary knowledge on warfare. When coerced by an authoritarian State to fight in an unjust war, there are plenty of options to choose from. It does not take a Commander of any army to have this knowledge which is no secret.

          (tell me faggot, what war did YOU desert from? When did you exercise any of those options that you so casually advocate to others?).
          I have never been coerced by an authoritarian State to fight in an unjust war.

          I love how a kid living in a first world country with a fridge full of food tries to hand out advice on draft-dodging
          I fail to see the point of hapless trying to connect the contents of my alleged fridge and the draft. Especially considering the draft in question was placed upon the most over-consuming slobs known to mankind.

          like he has EVER been in a remotely similar sitution or has any idea what he is talking about.
          I refuted this nonsense above.


          Anyone who advocates fucking suicide as a solution to a problem obviously has never encountered said problem themselves
          Obviously not, as I would be dead.

          and thus should SHUT THE FUCK UP.
          Let's round up all the doctors that put forward the opition of assisted suicide to the extreme terminally ill and execute them.

          Notice how your threads get about 0-5 replies now | K Y L E | ? No one takes you seriously anymore.
          You and your neocon clique have been saying this for years. In typical neocon propaganda fashion, the more the lie is said the more it is believeable. It was only two weeks ago that I had a thread with 76 replies, as a brief reading of the past few pages of this forum indicate.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by | K Y L E | View Post
            Hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese boys fought in the war, and they did so willingly. As did hundreds of thousands of female peasants. When your whole village is bombed by chemicals, or your whole village is raped and slaughtered (an every day thing), you will tend to fight back, no matter how old.
            I am not sure how this point is relevant to the debate. I was talking about US soldiers not Vietnamese who took up arms. Never once did I insinuate that the Vietnamese had no right to fight back, defend themselves, resist a foreign army or anything else.

            Originally posted by | K Y L E | View Post
            As for the Americans, well, their government decreed that they owned their body and soul, and as such every single one of them had to be killed and tortured.
            Not following you here either, who did the government decree to own "body and soul", US troops or Vietnamese fighters?

            Originally posted by | K Y L E | View Post
            Thousands of them deserted, especially the non-whites who understood that this was not their war, and many joined the Vietnam National Liberation Army.
            Perhaps, although it would be nice if you provided a source especially for your last point. I know many American would-be draftees went to Canada to avoid the draft, however by that time the war had become unpopular and injustifiable and the horrors were being shown to the public more and more frequently. In its early days, the boys, who were no more than children were drafted, clearly they were taught to believe that it was in the interest of the US, that communism was the root of all evil and so on. If you tell someone the same thing over and over again they are likely to believe you.

            Originally posted by | K Y L E | View Post
            The "Cold War" never existed.
            Of course it existed. Both the US and USSR viewed each other with deep suspicion. American's were taught to fear communism, it was ingrained into the American psyche for decades. The fear of communism was a key tool used by government to keep their populace in a state of fear, fearful people are more easily manipulated. The propoganda that went along with the Cold War was intense, people truly believed the evil, godless commies were a serious threat to their existence. This fear was used to convince ordinary people to pick up guns and fight wars as they saw it as the only way to prevent the evil communists from taking over the world.

            Originally posted by | K Y L E | View Post
            This was America invading a Third World country to surround Maoist China and rape its natural resources (Vietnam had huge, some the largest in the world, deposits of minerals that were needed for the U.S. space programmes).
            I am not debating what the US' governments agenda was, nor am I justifying the Vietnam War. I am simply trying to point out that every 19 year old draftee was forced to join the army or go to prison. Those drafted were no doubt subjected to an intense campaign of brainwashing and likely believed that they were fighting to save the world from evil commies. I am not trying to justify the war, I am trying to show you that young, naive boys were drafted and were made to believe they were fighting for the interests of their country, God and perhaps even the world. You have to put it into context, you have to look at the period during which the Vietnam war took place, you have take into account the ages of those fighting, you have to look at the propoganda of the time. Calling all draftee's murders is simplistic in the extreme.

            Originally posted by | K Y L E | View Post
            I hope you are not a hypocrite and will be apologetic for the German people during WWII.
            Well that depends, are we comparing apples with apples here, i.e. are you referring to the naive young men that were drafted to fight his war or are you talking about the German people in general. If it is the latter, then I see no reason to be apologetic where any adult is concerned. Adults have sufficient cognitive abilities to determine what is right and what is wrong, they joined the mob mentality knowing better, so no I see no need nor justification for being apologetic to them. Young boys drafted into a war not of their making or choice but simply as puppets for someone else's agenda are altogether different.
            "Nationalism is an infantile sickness. It is the measles of the human race."

            -Albert Einstein

            Comment


            • #7
              I don't think a military background necessarily makes you a better candidate for President. In 2004, Democrats beat this to death because Kerry fought in Vietnam and Bush avoided. The top three Democrats running (Clinton, Obama, Edwards) have no military experience. Although I doubt the issue (if McCain is the nominee) will be beat-to-death the same way it was during 2004.

              By the way, I still support McCain for President. He is the only President out with a logical solution to dealing with Iraq.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Tricia View Post
                Never once did I insinuate that the Vietnamese had no right to fight back, defend themselves, resist a foreign army or anything else.
                So what side are you on becomes the question, the people defending themselves, fighting back, resisting a foreign army, or those that are doing the attacking, initiating the war? Hopefully on the side of the Vietnamese. To defend the majority of the American army as poor little "boys" makes no sense at all.


                Not following you here either, who did the government decree to own "body and soul", US troops or Vietnamese fighters?
                The US troops and the reserve army/civilians at home.

                Perhaps, although it would be nice if you provided a source especially for your last point.
                The US government usednerve gas to murder 20 defectors. The CIA dealt with the rest in other manners.

                I know many American would-be draftees went to Canada to avoid the draft, however by that time the war had become unpopular and injustifiable and the horrors were being shown to the public more and more frequently.
                When was the war, or any of the U.S. wars since WWII, been justifiable?

                In its early days, the boys, who were no more than children were drafted, clearly they were taught to believe that it was in the interest of the US, that communism was the root of all evil and so on. If you tell someone the same thing over and over again they are likely to believe you.
                Or maybe it was in their interest, as Americans, to go and murder Indochinese people. It didn't take a huge propaganda machine for Americans to do the same thing to the First Nations of America

                Of course it existed. Both the US and USSR viewed each other with deep suspicion. American's were taught to fear communism, it was ingrained into the American psyche for decades.
                All of this happened before Churchill's speech, the formal separation of West Germany, the Berlin Blockade, The Anglo-American intervention in the Greek Civil War, etc. and similar events of post-WWII.


                The propoganda that went along with the Cold War was intense, people truly believed the evil, godless commies were a serious threat to their existence.
                Communism is a threat to petty-bourgeois United States. It is in the interest of a very large percentage of Americans to support imperialism, genocide and anti-communism. The people that would benefit from communism in America (Agricultural proletarians, lumpen-proletarians, the Black nationals, the First Nations nationals, prisoners, unemployed, and so on) are not by a coincidence the same people that are anti-US and do not listen to the professional liars.


                I am not debating what the US' governments agenda was, nor am I justifying the Vietnam War. I am simply trying to point out that every 19 year old draftee was forced to join the army or go to prison.
                Yes but they were still enemies to the world.

                You have to put it into context you have to look at the period during which the Vietnam war took place, you have take into account the ages of those fighting, you have to look at the propoganda of the time.
                The context is Americans having another genocide and rape of another nation. The "Cold War" is long over yet America is still doing it, Marx was not long dead before America stole the Spanish colonies.

                Calling all draftee's murders is simplistic in the extreme.
                So what was America doing over in Vietnam?

                Well that depends, are we comparing apples with apples here, i.e. are you referring to the naive young men that were drafted to fight his war or are you talking about the German people in general.
                The Wehrmacht.

                Young boys drafted into a war not of their making or choice but simply as puppets for someone else's agenda are altogether different.
                What about old men? Middle-aged men? Young girls?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by MechaGodzilla
                  ^Dude, just shut the fuck up.
                  Thank you for the intelligent response.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MechaGodzilla
                    ^What other response do you think you deserve?

                    All you do is repeat what Fox says like a broken record, without revealing even a spark of thought process.
                    I can not remember the last time you tried to debate a point I was making. You just say “shut the fuck up” and make no attempt to intelligently debate an issue. At least Kyle and Res and otherz will make an attempt to debate the points and not result in personal attacks.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      i cant believe that kyle said that ww2 was a legit war for americans! shocking!
                      www.supremacyracing.com


                      I Honda

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by MechaGodzilla
                        There were 3 instances in which you asked for evidence, I provided it, and you never replied.
                        There are tons of other ones when I asked for you to back up any Fox News propaganda that you replicate, and once again you never replied.
                        At that point I figured you're a waste of my time.
                        I have no idea what you are talking about. I don't go through and bookmark all of the threads. If you want to give me links, go ahead.

                        But you did not even debate me in this thread. All you came up with was a one line, "shut the fuck up."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by MechaGodzilla
                          ^I told you, debating you is a waste of my time.
                          As you said to Stereotype, shut the fuck up. I dont recall even one debate between you and him, where you provided sources and backed up your arguments and he did not. Hell, I have the search function, so tell me what thread it was or a common phrase or something and I'll link it. You dont trust me, then just get | K Y L E | to do it.

                          Bottom line, when a guy calls you out as being useless, and you claim every time you try and debate he never backs up his shit, then provide those instances. He might be a Pentagon drone that gets tuned by PassitOn everytime, but he does backup his arguments, avoids personal insults, and sticks do the debate at hand (unlike myself and most others on here).

                          Dont hide behind "I told you, debating you is a waste of my time". Honestly, you've said that to me, Stereo, and Walrus. As your losses mount, you'll probably just put more and more people on that list until there is no one left for you to debate with.
                          Originally posted by ethan20
                          There's a correlation between cervixal cancer in women and un-circumsized penises. Not to mention it almost cuts your bacteria count on the penis in half.
                          Originally posted by reservoirGod
                          Ethan sure does know alot about dicks

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